Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

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BaconMij
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Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by BaconMij »

Hello!

I know I'm new here, but this post is going to be multifaceted.

First off, I am a beginner to Buddhism, I have the basics pat down but my interest in Buddhism is quite different from the average Buddhist as I'm interested in the occult side and its uses to my practices. I'm very interested in getting a Kurukulla empowerment but I'm not sure about the procedure of it. I'd assume a public empowerment would be easier to receive considering I'm a beginner? I don't have a personal guru, and don't think I'll be finding one either unless absolutely necessary.

And if you recieve an empowerment from one tradition, can you use Sadhana from another tradition? Would I be free to use the Arya Tara text?
I understand many western Buddhists aren't interested in the magical side of Buddhism, but I'd hope someone could help me out.

Thanks!
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by Virgo »

The only magic is bodhicitta.

It is unsafe to practice without that motivational principle.

Kevin
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

BaconMij wrote:Hello!

I know I'm new here, but this post is going to be multifaceted.

First off, I am a beginner to Buddhism, I have the basics pat down but my interest in Buddhism is quite different from the average Buddhist as I'm interested in the occult side and its uses to my practices. I'm very interested in getting a Kurukulla empowerment but I'm not sure about the procedure of it. I'd assume a public empowerment would be easier to receive considering I'm a beginner? I don't have a personal guru, and don't think I'll be finding one either unless absolutely necessary.

And if you recieve an empowerment from one tradition, can you use Sadhana from another tradition? Would I be free to use the Arya Tara text?
I understand many western Buddhists aren't interested in the magical side of Buddhism, but I'd hope someone could help me out.

Thanks!

It's standard that you need a firm basis in Hinyana and Mahayana to "do" Vajrayana. My understanding is Vajrayana is not the real deal without those as a foundation, it is just occultism, or "magic" or whatever, and possibly dangerous. It's not a good motivation for practice to just be into the ritual trappings without having studied the meaning behind them.
and don't think I'll be finding one either unless absolutely necessary.
You can't just go practice Tantric sadhanas on your own without some kind of assistance, even the "open" ones aren't meant to be done like that to the best of my knowledge. Well, you technically "can", but you'll have no idea what you are doing, and according to some sources, be damaging yourself.
I'm interested in the occult side and its uses to my practices.
If you aren't interested in Buddhism, as in Hinayana and Mahayana, there is no way to practice Vajrayana, and the question of the texts is moot. Definitely not as an "extension" or add on to something unrelated you are already doing. The ritual side of things may seem mysterious and captivating, but it is consistent with the "basics" of Buddhism, and across the board teachers say that you simply cannot practice it without that basic understanding, and without a relationship to a teacher(s)...it will never be the real thing.

If you really want to experience it though, i'd try to find a local center that has public practices, then at least you can go and get questions answered by an authority figure. It would also likely be a much more gratifying experience than trying to figure out a sadhana on your own without either the go ahead from, or instruction from a teacher.

Alternately, you can start with Mahayana practices on your own, stuff like Lojong, Tonglen, Shamatha and Vipaysana can all be done without initiation (though really, still will need a teacher at some point). These are amazing practices in their own right, and IMO it's a big mistake to sell them short because Tantra looks more enticing, in fact...most teach that you need them on some level to do Tantra anyway.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
BaconMij
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by BaconMij »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: It's standard that you need a firm basis in Hinyana and Mahayana to "do" Vajrayana. My understanding is Vajrayana is not the real deal without those as a foundation, it is just occultism, or "magic" or whatever, and possibly dangerous. It's not a good motivation for practice to just be into the ritual trappings without having studied the meaning behind them.

Of course, I having looked at the basics of those practices and noting the similarity (some being practically the same) to my own western practices had assumed that I wouldn't have to worry about that, but I'm getting the gist that most teachers/lamas would view my past training as moot?


If you aren't interested in Buddhism, as in Hinayana and Mahayana, there is no way to practice Vajrayana, and the question of the texts is moot. Definitely not as an "extension" or add on to something unrelated you are already doing. The ritual side of things may seem mysterious and captivating, but it is consistent with the "basics" of Buddhism, and across the board teachers say that you simply cannot practice it without that basic understanding, and without a relationship to a teacher(s)...it will never be the real thing.

Alternately, you can start with Mahayana practices on your own, stuff like Lojong, Tonglen, Shamatha and Vipaysana can all be done without initiation (though really, still will need a teacher at some point). These are amazing practices in their own right, and IMO it's a big mistake to sell them short because Tantra looks more enticing, in fact...most teach that you need them on some level to do Tantra anyway.
I probably should have mentioned this earlier, but I have trained in thought control (retaining a thought for lengthy period of time, awareness of thoughts, vacancy of mind), working with the 4 elements, prana and apana, assumption of godform (which I think is quite similar to tantric practice), etc. within Western Tradition, and its why I'm interested in Vajrayana.

I do understand though that from a Buddhist POV, I'm just cultivating with "lower siddhis". And please forgive me if I cause any confusion, I don't mean to step on Buddhist tradition.
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

You're not stepping on anything, I know you are just asking questions and trying to get info. i'm not trying to be rude or anything either, just laying out the standard perspective for you as I understand it, as i've asked all the same questions myself.

It's just that Vajrayana is Buddhism and it has as the foundation the Mahayana and the Hinayana..Vajrayana may look similar on the surface to other systems you've studied, but those systems are not Buddhist, and have divergent views from Buddhism - which makes all the difference, because those esoteric practices are based on a certain foundation of thought.

A tantric sadhana is a completely different thing if you don't understand the motivation, philosophy, and worldview behind it, it will look like something it is not supposed to be.
I do understand though that from a Buddhist POV, I'm just cultivating with "lower siddhis". And please forgive me if I cause any confusion, I don't mean to step on Buddhist tradition.
Again, i'm not sure it works like that, what i'm saying is, if you don't really consider yourself a Buddhist, and don't want to be one, there is no need to pursue Tantra, it doesn't coincide with the goals of those other systems, by my understanding.

I can also say with some confidence that without a level of dedication to Buddhism proper, no one is going to teach you Tantra, minus going to a center that maybe does a public tara practice or similar, and practicing with others. I would not fool around with and try to "mix and match" without some direct experience, and knowing it's something you're interested in. That is the standard answer I believe from a Dharma point of view, those with a syncretic viewpoint might say otherwise.
but I'm getting the gist that most teachers/lamas would view my past training as moot?
Just guessing here, but i'll bet they would think it was great for concentration etc. and gives you a leg up, but since it is not a Buddhist system, and the first thing generally required is to actually, well, be a Buddhist, they would see previous training as advantageous, but certainly not qualifying you to do equivalent tantric practices without actually being a Buddhist, completing preliminary practices etc.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by Konchog1 »

“If you have developed bodhicitta in your mind-stream you will succeed in all the things ordinary people fail at, the knowledge mantras or tantric spells described in the sutras and tantras, in certain anthologies and so on to make it rain, stop hail, and so forth. Blame this on ordinary people’s lack of bodhicitta. Thus, if you want to rid yourself and others of sickness, etc. and want to have greater abilities, you must develop this mind. It is wrong to think an instruction taught on some tantric spell is at fault if it does not work for you.” -Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand pg. 560

“No Buddha of the three times became a Buddha without developing bodhicitta. A Buddha not needing bodhicitta is something unheard of. Therefore, someone without any bodhicitta will not receive the Buddhahood they want; they haven’t a hope of achieving Buddhahood if they lack this. So you must take it seriously.” -Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand pg. 575

“When you experience the conscious desire to achieve Buddhahood for the sake of sentient beings, you have developed a bodhicitta that resembles the outer layer of a piece of sugar cane. But if, in addition, you experience an involuntary desire to achieve full enlightenment for the sake of any sentient being you see, you have developed true bodhicitta in your mind-stream. You have entered the Mahayana path of accumulation and begun the three great aeons of amassing [the two collections]. You will acquire infinite qualities and gain the names ‘Child of the Victorious Ones’ and ‘Bodhisattva’. When you practice after achieving this insight, you are sure to be enlightened quickly even if you do not resort to the tantric path.’” -Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand pg. 586-587
Do what you will, but no practice will work without merit to power it. And there is no better source of merit than the desire to free all beings from all sufferings. I'm speaking from personal experience. I've recited prayers and mantra with no effect, then recited the same prayers and mantra with some generated Bodhicitta and got results within two days.
Equanimity is the ground. Love is the moisture. Compassion is the seed. Bodhicitta is the result.

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Without attachment, self-liberating, like a snake in a knot.
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by Adamantine »

Johnny is right, but more to the point: when you take a Vajrayana / tantric empowerment you make a totally sincere and heartfelt series of commitments. Preceding these tantric vows, you always take refuge and bodhisattva vows. That means, you'll be a Buddhist by the end of the empowerment, if you've actually taken the empowerment. If you just sit there and mumble some stuff parroting the Vajra master, without any intention of practicing the dharma, you won't actually receive the empowerment. Maybe you will get some benefit from making a connection with the Vajra master, but you won't have the fuel or fire to do the practice. You can do it-- but most likely if you go to an empowerment with the wrong motivations you will upset the dharmapalas- the dharma protectors, and this will not be a good thing for you, trust me. . it will bring you obstacles, not mundane siddhis as you say you desire.

If you feel an attraction to a yidam like Kurukulle, maybe spend some time contemplating why, and if you may have some karmic connection to the Vajrayana. If so, you should study more and as Johnny said focus on cultivating the proper altrusitic motivation, and seriously consider if this may be a path you want to commit to. If you don't make a solemn pledge for life at the time of an empowerment, the empowerment has not been transmitted. Samaya and empowerment are inseparable.
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by Grigoris »

It's easy to get a Kurukulle empowerment (you will be asked to take Refuge in the Three Jewels) and just as easy to get your hands on her sadhana. But then what? Without a teacher to guide you, or the correct motivation, either the practice will produce no fruit or it will just be another means to strengthen and fortify your dualising tendencies. Now if all you want to do is stroke your ego, then go for it. But really, why go to all the effort?
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by kirtu »

BaconMij wrote:Hello!

I know I'm new here, but this post is going to be multifaceted.

First off, I am a beginner to Buddhism, I have the basics pat down but my interest in Buddhism is quite different from the average Buddhist as I'm interested in the occult side and its uses to my practices.
There is no actual occult side as that term is usually understood. There is the accumulation of merit and the blessings of the yidam and the guru, the path of wishing/aspiration, dedication and interdependence. There are siddhis, but these cannot really be cultivated per se (although Vajrayana history would indicate otherwise - I think that is a problem with the presentation more than anything).

Without the blessings of the guru, pure merit (morality esp.), some minimal merit, there will be no siddhis. Then the yidam has to "agree" as well. All of this has to be contained at least in the pure motivation of a Arhat-like practitioner (i.e. you want to gain something in order to benefit your practice) and of course it's best to have this contained in Bodhisattva motivation (you want to do something to ultimately benefit all beings).

You will need to find a guru at least in order to bestow the empowerment. For some "open" practices you can use a sadhana from another tradition but this is very "basic" - you want to use a general sadhana for Tara or Chenrezig.

But Kurukulle doesn't fall into this category (except very generally, take refuge and recite her mantra and dedicate the results).

Many Western Buddhists are interested in the "magical" side but it's not what they think. And it's purpose is Bodhisattva (or arhat-like) activity.

Kirt
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"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by Kelwin »

BaconMij wrote:Hello!

I know I'm new here, but this post is going to be multifaceted.

First off, I am a beginner to Buddhism, I have the basics pat down but my interest in Buddhism is quite different from the average Buddhist as I'm interested in the occult side and its uses to my practices. I'm very interested in getting a Kurukulla empowerment but I'm not sure about the procedure of it. I'd assume a public empowerment would be easier to receive considering I'm a beginner? I don't have a personal guru, and don't think I'll be finding one either unless absolutely necessary.

And if you recieve an empowerment from one tradition, can you use Sadhana from another tradition? Would I be free to use the Arya Tara text?
I understand many western Buddhists aren't interested in the magical side of Buddhism, but I'd hope someone could help me out.

Thanks!
Usually interest in magic is considered wrong motivation in Buddhism. As you can see in the replies above :smile: . However, if it makes you motivated to get into practice, it might just be a good thing. Be prepared to have your understanding and motivation change over time, of course. I used to just want to obtain magical powers, then later I understood the need to help others. In fact, the whole idea of having powers without any motivation behind it became completely ridiculous. It will come, it's ok.

Meet some teachers though, and see if someone inspires you. Not only will they help you travel the full path, and give you access to all the practices you need.. it is where the real magic happens.
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by kirtu »

kirtu wrote: Many Western Buddhists are interested in the "magical" side but it's not what they think. And it's purpose is Bodhisattva (or arhat-like) activity.
I inadvertently overstated this somewhat - you can practice for mundane things for yourself to support your life: job, work, housing, etc. The literature concerning Kurukulle suggests that this can go further in fact. This may or may not have been skillful means to get lusty or greedy people to practice.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
BaconMij
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by BaconMij »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Again, i'm not sure it works like that, what i'm saying is, if you don't really consider yourself a Buddhist, and don't want to be one, there is no need to pursue Tantra, it doesn't coincide with the goals of those other systems, by my understanding.

I can also say with some confidence that without a level of dedication to Buddhism proper, no one is going to teach you Tantra, minus going to a center that maybe does a public tara practice or similar, and practicing with others. I would not fool around with and try to "mix and match" without some direct experience, and knowing it's something you're interested in. That is the standard answer I believe from a Dharma point of view, those with a syncretic viewpoint might say otherwise.
Thank you, and thank you to everyone else who posted in this thread who I'd prefer not to quote as that would make this an extremely length post. After a little soul searching, considering what you have all said about pursuing Buddhism via the Tibetan path and its relation to my practice/the dedication and mindset required for to practice it, and some research, I found what I've been looking for in Buddhist doctrine is to be found in Shingon/Shugendō (fortunately I know someone who can get me in contact with monks in Japan who teach lay-people to become something akin to non-ascetic monks), which is something I had pursued in the past but decided to throw away.

That is to say, you'll probably catch me posting in the Shingon section of this forum.
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

BaconMij wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Again, i'm not sure it works like that, what i'm saying is, if you don't really consider yourself a Buddhist, and don't want to be one, there is no need to pursue Tantra, it doesn't coincide with the goals of those other systems, by my understanding.

I can also say with some confidence that without a level of dedication to Buddhism proper, no one is going to teach you Tantra, minus going to a center that maybe does a public tara practice or similar, and practicing with others. I would not fool around with and try to "mix and match" without some direct experience, and knowing it's something you're interested in. That is the standard answer I believe from a Dharma point of view, those with a syncretic viewpoint might say otherwise.
Thank you, and thank you to everyone else who posted in this thread who I'd prefer not to quote as that would make this an extremely length post. After a little soul searching, considering what you have all said about pursuing Buddhism via the Tibetan path and its relation to my practice/the dedication and mindset required for to practice it, and some research, I found what I've been looking for in Buddhist doctrine is to be found in Shingon/Shugendō (fortunately I know someone who can get me in contact with monks in Japan who teach lay-people to become something akin to non-ascetic monks), which is something I had pursued in the past but decided to throw away.

That is to say, you'll probably catch me posting in the Shingon section of this forum.
Awesome, i'm glad to hear it!
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
pensum
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by pensum »

Those interested in learning more about Kurukulla might want to check out The Practice Manual of Noble ‌Tārā ‌Kurukullā which is available at http://read.84000.co/#!ReadingRoom/UT22084-081-006/
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Re: Kurukulla, magic, and Buddhism

Post by michaelb »

There is also John Reynolds' article that no longer seems findable on his new look website
http://vajranatha.com/teaching/Kurukulla.htm
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